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I just saw a news report on NBC that talked about a Town near Wichita Falls in TX that is going to let certain members of its high school's staff, not just the on campus officer, carry guns on campus and at school events, their reasoning was that they figured it would take police 30 min or more to get to them if an incident did occur. I thought "Well thats good." at first, but then i thought, what if the teachers arent properly trained with their weapons? Wouldnt they just make things worse?

What do you guys and gals think about this?

With proper training and testing I would support it.

40 hours in firearms at least, shoot no shoot scenarios, training would have to be changed for armed staff members in response to active shooter.

gibbs1189 says ...

I agree with the both of you, but still, teachers arent really well known for their cool heads in combat. If the shooter was a student, in a high school with 3000 kids, picking out the correct target may pose a problem to someone with no real combat/self defense situation experience. I think that they should allow them to carry, yes, but i think they should also bring in more LEO's to patrol the school, rather than just leaving the task of school defense to possibly inexperienced civilians.

Hence the proper training and qualification. If they can't pass the training then they would not be armed.

gibbs1189 says ...

KSP494 says ...

gibbs1189 says ...

I agree with the both of you, but still, teachers arent really well known for their cool heads in combat. If the shooter was a student, in a high school with 3000 kids, picking out the correct target may pose a problem to someone with no real combat/self defense situation experience. I think that they should allow them to carry, yes, but i think they should also bring in more LEO's to patrol the school, rather than just leaving the task of school defense to possibly inexperienced civilians.

Hence the proper training and qualification. If they can't pass the training then they would not be armed.

Right, but what im saying is that maybe training wouldnt be enough. You are a LEO, and i am not (yet anyway), so you obviously have more experience on these kinds of matters, dealing with shootings, combat/defense training, hell, i cant even lawfully carry a gun yet, so maybe i should just go with you on this one, but i still think that just training and range/target shooting and drills wouldnt really make them ready for a situation that called for them to shoot at, or kill a child, possibly one of their own students, especially when that person could be in a huge crowd of other innocent students, or if the teacher just barely passed the training course, just enough to carry the weapon. When the day comes, will he/she be ready?

OK well then what makes a rookie cop any more qualified?

THIRDWATCHNORTH says ...

KSP494 says ...

gibbs1189 says ...

KSP494 says ...

gibbs1189 says ...

I agree with the both of you, but still, teachers arent really well known for their cool heads in combat. If the shooter was a student, in a high school with 3000 kids, picking out the correct target may pose a problem to someone with no real combat/self defense situation experience. I think that they should allow them to carry, yes, but i think they should also bring in more LEO's to patrol the school, rather than just leaving the task of school defense to possibly inexperienced civilians.

Hence the proper training and qualification. If they can't pass the training then they would not be armed.

Right, but what im saying is that maybe training wouldnt be enough. You are a LEO, and i am not (yet anyway), so you obviously have more experience on these kinds of matters, dealing with shootings, combat/defense training, hell, i cant even lawfully carry a gun yet, so maybe i should just go with you on this one, but i still think that just training and range/target shooting and drills wouldnt really make them ready for a situation that called for them to shoot at, or kill a child, possibly one of their own students, especially when that person could be in a huge crowd of other innocent students, or if the teacher just barely passed the training course, just enough to carry the weapon. When the day comes, will he/she be ready?

OK well then what makes a rookie cop any more qualified?

A rookie Officer has a mindset that has been pounded into them.  A teacher has not.  Personally taking out a human being with a firearm is something most people give about 3 minutes of thought to in their lifetime and it's most likely during an action movie on the widescreen... Officers think this EVERY 3 minutes or so.  My Traning Officer beat that mindset into me all the time during training, "He might pull a gun.  What's your backdrop?  Where's your cover? " etc. etc. 

The last thing I would want is my kid getting acidentally winged or worse -killed, by some school teacher who has no idea of the concepts involved in engaging an active shooter.  At the most I would say give them Tasers w/ training.  We're taught to meet deadly force with deadly force but a school teacher does not have the training/firearm discipline we do.  Not to mention students can get a hold of their firearms about as easy as they can.  If they can't hit their target with a Taser then they sure as hell have no business shooting their target with a firearm.

Firearms training on any mass scale would be a joke.  Who's going to qualify a school teacher to the point where they can stand in civil court and say, "Yes your Honor, I did train this person to carry/handle firearms and I found them 100% capable to do so.  We spent 15 minutes discussing the idea of a backdrop of 60 running 12 year olds but how was I supposed to know they were daydreaming at that point of the training?".  If a school system feels it necessary to arm their teachers then they should have already come to the realization that they need to hire on sworn school PD Officers to keep their school(s) safe. 

Yet daily we put people through an 8 hour course and give them a license to carry a concealed deadly weapon. I think with 40 hours of training from a state certified instructor which includes scenarios and shoot no shoot situations and law enforcement qualification arming a couple individuals in schools would not be bad. If they don't make it through the training then they don't carry. Even make them go through additional background checks and psychological testing. Otherwise what is your fix for waiting for police to get there? What is your acceptable loss of students before I make it across a county to get to a school? Who is going to make those notifications to the family? Which is the bigger liability, having some of the staff armed for an incident which may never happen in their school or having an active shooter in a school and it taking me or the Sheriff's Dept. 20-30 minutes to get there, how many will be dead by then? This is my opinion I'm sorry that it differs from yours.

I'm going to have to agree with KSP. The fact they have some training is good enough for a normal citizen to carry and use a weapon, so it should be good enough for a teacher. Especially if they get more training than the average citizen. But another fact is, if the teachers have weapons, what retard at school would try to start something, knowing he might get shot? Teachers having a gun would allow quicker responses in a shooting situation and probably prevent them from occurring. As well as decrease other school related crimes dramatically. If my teacher had a gun, I wouldn't pull any sh*t in their class. I'd shut up, pay attention, and learn, so they have no reason to get upset with me.

with the proper training and qualifications met i am all for it.  on a side note, its all fun and games until one of the students gets upset and starts shooting up a class then they blame the schools and teacher for having a gun in school.   kinds of like damned if you do and damned if you dont. 

Well, being a school cop.  I don't think that is a good idea.  Students, teachers  and other school employees could very well be the offender(s). I for one do not want to enter a school not knowing how many guns are in there and who has one (But to think about that statement, our officers do that everyday).  We arrested a Principal for threating a custodian with a firearm on campus.  We arrest students, teachers and other school employees often. 

These people are human and simply being in a school setting does not make them different from others.  In my opinion if anyone on campus who needed to be armed other than the District's police is the Principal,  Asst Principal(s)  and select  school security  and only after extensive training conducted  by the police and a phycological exam.  My school district has many ex-military and cops working as teachers.  I am only thinking about the environment I work in. 

The response time for Miami-Dade Schools in an emergency most times is less than 5 minutes due to officers being on campus and the local jurisdictions ability to respond if they are closer then we are for schools that do not have an assigned officer.  I can not speak for other school districts.

I agree it a decent idea as long as the teachers are trained and qualified..I worked in a HS and the problem I see is when a fight breaks out and you are wrestling with several students fighting if the weapon falls to the ground anyone can grab it so I hope the weapon is locked in a secure place where it is obtained only if a situation arises.

I agree with it if the Teacher volunteers, passes a psyche evaluation, safety and active shooter courses.  The firearms should be concealed at all times and the names of armed Staff should be known only to those who have a need.  The presence alone would deter most and should the need arise lives could be saved.

You left a few things out.  In those situations the police response was timely but what they did when they got there was not. Hence active shooter training.  Once you police a school you will be better able to see my point.  Car alarms don't stop cars from being broken into but we have them and a list of other things that are supposed to deter criminals and maniacs but they still do what they do.  Did you read that we arrested a Principal for pulling a firearm on another employee?

Let the Police police and the teachers teach.  As I posted in my previous post I think I said if I had to chose those would be the folks I would select and if I did not then that was what I meant.  Anytime the police is needed in an emergency time stands still. But they get there quickly most of the time.  It's what is done by them after arrival.  This will never be allowed anyway.  For many many reasons.  Can you say LIABILITY!

Also reference Florida the law was passed did violent crime go down, NO it went up! Burglary and stolen firearms also went up.  Now there are even more guns on the street.  Almost everyone you encounter in Miami is armed in some manner or other.  But that is the life style here in Miami-Dade and I chose to help police it. 

snhadley says ...

<snip>Let the Police police and the teachers teach. <snip>

 

I can understand your sentiments based upon your training and experiences, however if we take that very same principle we could apply it to almost anything and it makes for a PERFECT excuse to completely outlaw and seize all firearms from civillians. We are talking about the prospect of attempting to deter potential mass violence and give those willing (in theory) to go into harms way as volunteers to protect the defenseless.... It kinda sounds like the Federal Flight Deck Officer program for arming commercial pilots doesn't it ? And what more valuable resource is there to our country than our children in what is already publicly known as "target rich environments" since schools are already gun-free zones and therefore "safe".

I will however acknowledge that in most places folks feel the same about schools as they do about hospitals and that "nothing bad can or will happen here" so we don't need armed proetction against 2 legged wolves.

-btw- if you aren't already aware of my personal situation involving guns & kids check my profile....who knows maybe I'm just a "F" d up psychotic idiot rambling... 

I've been teaching for 18 years, both at the elementary level and more recently at the junior high school level.  I do not think teachers should be allowed to carry firearms, but if it does come about I would hope the few that are chosen to carry firearms would be VERY well trained and would work closely with the local PD. 

Ina_Pickle says ...

snhadley says ...

<snip>Let the Police police and the teachers teach. <snip>

 

I can understand your sentiments based upon your training and experiences, however if we take that very same principle we could apply it to almost anything and it makes for a PERFECT excuse to completely outlaw and seize all firearms from civillians. We are talking about the prospect of attempting to deter potential mass violence and give those willing (in theory) to go into harms way as volunteers to protect the defenseless.... It kinda sounds like the Federal Flight Deck Officer program for arming commercial pilots doesn't it ? And what more valuable resource is there to our country than our children in what is already publicly known as "target rich environments" since schools are already gun-free zones and therefore "safe".

I will however acknowledge that in most places folks feel the same about schools as they do about hospitals and that "nothing bad can or will happen here" so we don't need armed proetction against 2 legged wolves.

-btw- if you aren't already aware of my personal situation involving guns & kids check my profile....who knows maybe I'm just a "F" d up psychotic idiot rambling... 

 

 

Brother, I read your profile and I am very sorry about your losses.  I too had a child who took one of my firearms and shot himself. The only differences in the outcome was that my weapon  was secured in a locked bedroom and high up on a shelf in a closet.  He broke in to my bedroom and took one of my weapons and shot himself accidentally.  Fortunately, he did not die and I nor my wife who is also a LEO did not get charged.  I now have a Bank Safe to secure all of my firearms.  I hope someone learns a lesson from our situation. 

This discussion has nothing to do with gun control it's about teachers with firearms in a school.  The perfect situation would to have an armed teacher present when a bad guy displays or starts shooting.  The teacher shoots the subject case over.  It does not happen that way.  Teachers have many responsibilities in a school setting one of which is to protect the students in their classroom and not abandon them to go play Cop.  No offense to teachers my sister is one.  You don't have to pass a phycological exam to be a teacher only a background check.  I have taken teachers who have had nervous breakdowns to mental health facilities.  Who were drunk in the classroom.  Who have raped students. I could go on and on.  Everything that goes on on the street occurs in our schools.

The Federal Flight Deck Officer Program you're comparing apples to oranges.  One pilot and possiblly an Air Marshall or an LEO on official buisness.  Passengers on an enclosed aircaft.  The Pilot and Air Marshall know each other has a firearm and they know who the LEO on duty is.  Anyone else with one is the target.

We have schools with over 5,000 students and staff.  I work for a school district.  Bad things happen there everyday. Hospitals are they to arm the Doctors, Nurses, and Staff.  What about Churches Arm the Pastor too!  Oh by the way I carry my weapon concealed at church too.  You never know where an idiot will show up.  But I am a trained professional. 

Arming Teachers sounds good in theory, but this is a Law enforcement nightmare.  What happens when a Teacher shoots a child by accident or has an accidental discharge in the classroom.  Law Enforcement Officers know of some other LEO who had an AD and they are trained professionals. You have no idea what the repercussions of that will be.

I don't have the time to figure out if the person  with a hand gun  in a school or anywhere else  is a teacher or not.  I would lose  precious time disarming or   possible killing this person if they do not respond properly to  my commands or does some unintentional overt act.

Tell me how many times have you seached a school for an armed subject or been involved in a school related shooting.  I have on numerous occasions.  Try it one time and your brain child of arming Teachers will go away quickly.  I don't think you are an idiot. I think your response like many others are based on emotion without thinking the issue through! I'm done with this one!  Thank care and good luck!