Group Forums >> Gun Buffs >> Picking the right off duty firearm
Picking the right off duty firearm
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Posted 2 months ago This is a response I wrote in another forum. I'll post it here should the question arise.
Well, I will try my best to keep this short and simple. I qualify at the range with four of my handguns. My department has a very liberal off-duty policy. I shoot my duty, which is a Sig P229 in .357 Sig. I never carry it off duty due to its size. My off duty carry is either a Glock 33 in .357 Sig or my S&W 340PD. The 340PD can chamber and fire a .357 mag round, or a .38 +P. It’s an up close and personal gun. I wouldn’t recommend a 25 yard shot with .357 mags. I also qualify with one of my 1911s (.45 caliber). I shoot those in competition, but rarely carry them. Here’s why. A 1911 differs in function greatly from either my Sig or my glock. Cocked and Locked means I have to do something before I need to shoot. Like “uncock” the damn thing. We fight like we train and train like we fight. Try not to differ too much from your duty to your off duty. Another example is either a Walther or H&K where the magazine release is ambidextrous. If you carry one on duty, then carry a more concealable model while off-duty. But don’t train one way and then expect your reloads to go as smoothly with an ambidextrous mag release.
As far as caliber is concerned. Don’t waste your money one a 9mm. That was cool about 100 years ago, 1902 to be exact.
If I don’t like 9mm, then you know I don’t like .380. A weaker 9mm. It was cool in 1908.
.45 is a man killer round. It’s like getting hit with a sledge hammer. Terminal ballistics show large wound channels. However, .45 caliber guns a typically larger framed to accommodate the larger round. This round has been around 1905 and the US military replaced the 38 Long Colt. They used it for over 70 years = combat effective.
.40 caliber (modern era) Introduced in 1990, to give similar ballistics as a .45 but to allow for smaller frame guns. They can achieve this with a higher chamber pressure.
.357 Sig (I’m biased for this one). Another modern era cartridge, extremely high pressure = higher muzzle velocities = faster moving bullet. This round has similar ballistics to a .357 magnum = Awesome.
Someone mentioned that a 9mm has more energy than a .38 round. Here’s the real deal. Most modern revolvers in .38 can fire a .38 +P without blowing your cylinder in half, in fact, most are rated for it. So now let’s compare a 9mm with a .38+P. They are virtually the same. Take any reloading manual and see for yourself take a 125 grain bullet. 9mm has a higher chamber pressure, but the casing holds less powder. A .38 has more powder and lower pressures. They balance each other out. You may get a 100 more fps on a 9mm.
Remember that ballistics refers to energies. I look at things as a science geek. Kinetic energy is energy in motion, and kinetic energy equals one half (the mass of an object multiplied by the squared speed (velocity) the object is traveling). ( Ek=1/2mv^2 ) So the kinetic energy relies more so upon the speed of the object than its mass. Because of this, I’d prefer a smaller round traveling faster than a larger round moving slower. Look at the efficiency of a .223 caliber or a 5.56 mm. About 2800 fps for a 55 grain bullet. I don’t want to get hit by that. A .357 Sig or Magnum will typically reach velocities of 1300 fps for a 125 grain bullet. A .45, 230 grain , is around 700 fps. A .40 cal is around 900 fps for a 165 grain bullet. If you’re a foot pound kind of guy, try this link:
Remember that due to the conservation of energy, first law of thermodynamics, that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; it can only be changed from one form to another or transferred from one body to another, but the total amount of energy remains constant. You’ll lose some from barrel to bad guy, but for all intents and purposes the kinetic energy of the bullet is transferred to the bad guy. Bigger bullets make bigger holes, TRUE.. BUT smaller bullets moving FASTER, transfer more energy into the bad guy = more secondary wound channels, (hydrostatic shock). That’s another dissertation.
In summary, I prefer the .357 Sig in a semi-automatic pistol. I’d recommend a Glock as they are pretty inexpensive and very reliable. If you want a revolver look at the S&W Airlight line (.357 Mag is best, but there’s nothing wrong with the .38 +P. If you don’t like the higher costs for the .357 SIG ammo then buy a .40 caliber. Next I’d recommend a .45 with a 185 grain bullet. Try to stay away from any other caliber like 9 mm or .380 they’re outdated. Don't scarifice function for form. In other words, don't pick a gun because it looks cool.
Please feel free to drop me a line should you have any questions.
PS> the jury is still out on this subject and unfortunately the experts can’t agree. Ultimately it is just my opinion here, based upon fact and scientific principle. You can draw your own conclusions. Above all else, practice, practice, practice, and practice some more.
Hope this helps,
Bryan
Freedom is not free, but the U.S. Marine Corps will pay most of your share. |
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| Posted 2 months ago So what do you really think? If I could keep one heart from breaking, I shall not live in vain. If I could ease one life the aching or cool one pain; or lift a fainting robin unto it's nest again, I shall not live in vain. Emily Dickinson
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| Posted 2 months ago Good point Hoop740. I agree, smaller than a 9mm is not the best, saying that a pocket gun that I often carry is a .380. Yes I know it is small, but it is also convenient until I can get the smaller framed 1911 that I want. I carry a 1911 on duty, it is the largest caliber that I can carry and feel comfortable with. I do believe that it does need to be something similar to your duty weapon but small enough that you will actually carry it off duty. I know plenty that have glock 22 and glock 27 and never carry the 27 because they say it is bulky. |
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| Posted 2 months ago I agree, I carry a P220R on duty and off either P245 or SP2340 in Sig 357 |
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| Posted 2 months ago I carry my Sig 239 in the 357 sig caliber. It is a little big for off duty, but I love this weapon. Shoots smooth, accurate at 25+ yards, good firepower, and easliy concealed under a vest, overcoat, or even a large shirt. Also, fits in my belly band. I also have a PPK/S 380 caliber that I do like, but its all steel frame is a bit heavy for a small gun and it lacks the firepower of the Sig 239. It's also very smooth and accurate. Subject to stove pipes and misfeeds if even a little "limp wristed." If I could keep one heart from breaking, I shall not live in vain. If I could ease one life the aching or cool one pain; or lift a fainting robin unto it's nest again, I shall not live in vain. Emily Dickinson
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| Posted 2 months ago Good points but you should really compare mutiple loads in each caliber to be fair and balanced. For example, a 40 S&W 155 JHP @1250 FPS has a lot more energy than the example you cited. It is really hard to pick a bad 357 or 40 S&W HP. |
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| Posted 2 months ago Nice post. I'm a S&W 649 bodyguard. 38 +P but only 5 shots. I realize it's an up close and personal gun but shooting through a pocket works for me. |
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| Posted 2 months ago I carry a Glock 22 on duty, and a Glock 23 or 1911 off duty. I carry the 1911 in the winter because it's easier to conceal, but I have no problem transitioning from the Glock to the 1911. I carry it cocked and locked. I drop the thumb safety as I'm drawing from the holster and she's ready to thump before the muzzle leaves the holster. I've heard a lot of good things about the .357 Sig. I have not had the chance to shoot one yet. Then the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. For there is born to you this day in the city of David a savior, who is Christ the Lord."
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| Posted about 1 month ago Hoop, sounds like you have researched the subject, and have many well reasoned points. However, I still prefer to carry my S&W MP 9mm off duty. Since most of us don't carry spare mags off duty, I like the 17+1 capacity of my 9mm. Although I plan on hitting my target each and every time I discharge a round, I like the fact that if I have to engage multiple targets, and possibly have to provide covering fire to disengage myself, I will have ample rounds to do so with. |
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| Posted about 1 month ago Interesting initial post. I attended a ballistic test a while back. Here's what I saw. Here's what I can vouch for. And here's what I can tell you another officer said. My Sig 220 (.45) provided the best overall penetration and wound channel result. I shot Federal HST which is the modern day improved round that duplicates the results of the Black Talon. Six 'petals' corkscrewing through the wound channel. Devastating. I am hoping I can get my hands on a Glock 36. It is a low profile baby-type glock for the .45 that holds 7.....6 in the mag, 1 in the pipe. Another officer I know can vouch for the effectiveness of the HST round.....firsthand. And, all the guys at the test shoot were 'enchanted' with the results of the Federal HST round. I kid you not. It even impressed the other manufacturer who sponsored the ballistic shoot. Until I can get my hands on a Glock 36, I still carry my S&W 642. "We should remember that one man is much the same as another, and he is Best, who is trained in the severest school." Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War "Victory is reserved for those who are willing to pay the price."
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| Posted about 1 month ago Duty weapon is G-22. for ease of transition and keeping it simple, I have a G-27 for personal carry. No mixing of calibers, and the same actions and safeties. I have considered, however, using a .380 for summer time carry, when carry of the G-27 would be a problem, it's better than nothing. |
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| Posted about 1 month ago I know that people, especially the ones that I train, don't like hearing this but here it goes. Anytime you carry a semi-automatic pistol, you should carry a spare magazine. I don't know how other people train on clearing a double feed, but our training requires the shooter to discard their magazine, rack the action to clear the chamber, and insert a fresh magazine. I can't justify carrying only one magazine, the one in the gun, for that reason. Any other opinions? Freedom is not free, but the U.S. Marine Corps will pay most of your share. |
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| Posted about 1 month ago I also carry a Glock 22 for duty use and Glock 27 for off duty carry. I just purchased a Kel-Tec P3-AT .380 to carry in my pocket in the summer time. I like the feel of the Kel-Tec but the recoil is murder. I really would only use this up close and personal say maybe 3 to 10 feet at the most. I can hit my target at 15 yards but trying any farther away I believe would be just a waste of ammo. Just my 2 cents. |
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| Posted about 1 month ago TheSarge says ...
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| Posted about 1 month ago Hoop740 says ...
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| Posted about 1 month ago Time of year, where you are, the occasion are all factors that should be looked at when making the decision as to what you will carry of duty. The size of the person also plays a big role in the size of the gun chosen. There have been many good points brought up in the posts, to include having similar actions between on and off duty guns lessoning accuracy problems when transitioning from one to the other. If your are using same caliber for both, it would be best that the ammo used would also match. No option will be right for everyone everytime and place. |
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| Posted about 1 month ago On duty I carry a Keltec , easy to conceal in your vest or in a pair of shorts. In the winter I carry a Kimber SIS under a coat. |
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| Posted about 1 month ago On duty I carry a Glock 22. Off duty I carry a SIG 229DAK. I like the Glock and feel totally comfortable with it however I love the ergonomics of a SIG and the trigger feels great when I shoot it. I'm a big advocate of the .40 caliber. I like the .45 and if my agency transitioned to it I would be pissed because I'd have to get a 220DAK. We've had a number of OIS's with the .40's and they've done their job every time. The only beef that I've seen is that we've had a couple of through and throughs that concerned me. |
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| Posted about 1 month ago I switch off duty carry between a glock 26 and a Kahr PM9 depending on the weather and how i am going to be dressed. I carry both in an IWB holster. I have recently been looking into finding something smaller that I can carry in my pocket for those extremely hot days when i usully wear shorts and a tank top. I tried carrying my Kahr in my pocket but it still "prints" through. I was looking at the Ruger LCP but i am reading mixed reviews and they are not california legal anyways. Does any have any experience with small pocket guns or suggestions on better ways of cencealing the glock or Kahr. I Know the smaller .380/.32 calibers are not very good fight stopping calibers but I figure having any gun is better than no gun. |
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| Posted about 1 month ago Hoop740, you are a grand man. But I have to disagreed on one point. (or at least play devil's advocate). Your statements about the 9mm were very much correct up until the late 80's to mid 90's, but the modern bullets that are top of the line with most all manufactures now days are so much better in terminal preformance than what was ever possiable back even in the the 60's. The new generation of bullets have narrowed the gap to where there is not much difference between the 9mm, 40 and 45, if you look at actual shooting results. Also, for everyone else, most all autos untill the 60's were made only to shoot miI ammo or something very close. Why because that was all there was back then, they did not have to feed anything else. I feel anyone who carries a 9mm or has to, is not undergunned with todays best ammo. In the past the FMJ 9mm was just about the same as carrying the old 38spl with a 158 lead roundnose. I carry a Kel-Tec P11 as backup on duty most of the time. On duty I have to carry a G22 in 40, and really do not like it. Off duty I carry one of my 1911 most of the time, Nothing feels as good to me as a 1911(just way too many rounds range for me to change). If I HAVE To GO smaller I will carry the P-11. A 9mm is as small as I go. If my department would suppy the ammo I would shoot the Glock in comp, but that would double their ammo cost a year (small department).
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| Posted about 1 month ago Ocampo, Try looking at a S&W J frame line of revolvers. They are small and lightweight. I carry a S&W 340 PD as a back up on duty. I also carry it while off duty when I'm in shorts like you described. I prefer the .357 mags, but you could also carry a .38 +P because the magnums kick hard. I went with the "hammerless" version as you could easily shoot it from inside of a coat pocket..
Freedom is not free, but the U.S. Marine Corps will pay most of your share. |
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| Posted about 1 month ago My traing and experince are you should carry the same type and operating system off duty that you do on duty. When the Feces hits the last ting to think about is how the gun works. I train with Sigs I carry Sigs. I own others and enjoy many types of guns. I really enjoy a good 1911, but I do my fighting with the Sig. I have trained and practiced with it so much that I run the weapon at an unconcious compentence level. Meaning I do not think about what I have to do I just do it. Caliber choices are personal, the best choice is the biggest that you can accuratly shoot. "Fast is fine but accuracy is final learn to be slow in a hurry. Wyatt Earp" |
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| Posted about 1 month ago Hoop740, Thanks for the suggestion. do you carry spare ammo for it also? If so, do you use speedloaders and how do you carry them. Another reason I was looking at a small auto was i figure it is easier to carry spare ammo since the magazines are slim and easier to conceal. |
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| Posted about 1 month ago I have found it is much easier to carry the same type weapon off duty as you carry on duty. That way you don't have to think about whether you have to release a safety or if your first shot is double action or not. My Sigs, Rugers and 1911 all have different levers to mess with, and in the heat of battle I don't want to have to think about which gun I have. I carry a Springfield XD .357 5 inch for my duty weapon and an XD .40 4 inch off duty. Since both function the same I don't have to think about it. And yes, I do carry a spare mag and a set of cuffs off duty. |
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| Posted about 1 month ago THIRDWATCHNORTH said: "The Glock 36 has been suspended from our "approved" list of firearms due to malfunction. I don't recall exactly what the malfunction entailed but I can say that it was during an Officer involved shooting that one of our Officers was in and this firearm was rendered useless as a result. Our Rangemaster was reportedly able to recreate the malfunction using multiple Glock 36's." "The Glock 30 has a stagered stack magazine allowing the gun to hold 10 in the magazine and one in the pipe/11 total. It's a very accurate gun with some time at the range (I'm almost to the same size groups as my Glock 21). 11 rounds of .45 is nice to have in an off-duty/back up and the magazines are interchangeable with the 13 round Glock 21 should you carry that as a primary." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Thanks for input on this. I T&E'd both the 30 and 36. They were new in-the-box guns provided by Glock for my evaluation. I was thinking of the 36 mainly due to it's slim outline and ability to conceal it well. I know, I know, there are more rounds in the 30. I am retiring soon and I won't be crawling into a uniform with all the multi-pound bells and whistles, so I was looking at the long term what to carry on my person in civilian clothes. Was the problem due to a Class III malfunction ("Limp Wristing") or purely a mechanical problem? I personally fired hundreds of rounds through both the 30 and 36 and I didn't experience any anomalies. And I fired them dirty as well. I didn't clean them to see how far I could go before just being dirty-from-shooting would cause it to jam or break. Still, nothing unusual occurred. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Hoop, I guess when you come to the fork in the road, you gotta make a decision. For me, I chose to not carry and additional mag. Yes, it is a good idea. Very good idea. Again, my application will be very low profile and I will not be in a uniform soon. Just another civilian......but armed. On the extremes I know of one guy who always carries three guns on himself. And the other end are the guys who don't carry at all. Choices, choices. Some with a bit of compromise and others with enough ammo to quell a small uprising. Thanks for providing reliable info up in here ! "We should remember that one man is much the same as another, and he is Best, who is trained in the severest school." Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War "Victory is reserved for those who are willing to pay the price."
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| Posted about 1 month ago I'll offer my argument then I must hit the road. Just for you Sarge-I am from the school of thought if you feel it necessary to carry a firearm then you should carry not less than one spare load of ammunition. For me this is a law like gravity. Hoop if your 45 is launching the flying ashtray 700 fps second there is something very wrong. THe 45 should be traveling not less than 850. If a 230 gr 45 is traveling less 850 then it will not be effective and it is possible you would be better served with a 380. Most likely reason I know of for a 45 traveling at 700 fps (assuming it is factory ammo) is it is a 230 gr projectile being fired out of a 3" barrel. Heavy projectiles and short barrel don't often mix well. The short barrels fail to push the projectile with enough velocity to deliver the needed foot pounds of energy to be effective. 9mm can be effective if the right rds are selected. Disclaimer: 9mm is not my favorite or preferred round. My Kahr K9 is rated (as are all Kahr pistols) for +P and I shoot Cor Bon 115 gr +P. According to the box it's traveling at 1350 fps (at least I think so and I can't find a box to confirm right now). I don't have the tools to verify what my K9 launches the round at. I know it is not 1350 fps since it is a short barrel. 180 gr 40 ammo typically travels in excess of 950 fps out of a 4.5" barrel. Lighter rounds travel faster. A 180 gr Winchester Ranger out of a Glock 27 travels at 905 fps, according to some random info I found on the net the other day. I have only shot one 357 sig in a Glock (whichever the full size model is, a 31 I think) and was not impressed. It caused more noticable muzzle flip than my Glock 22. I was able to fire more accurately faster with the 40 than the 357 sig. That was just me. My opinion is Wyatt Earp was right Fast is fine, Accuracy is final. I was faster and more accurate with a 40 vs the 357 sig. Selection of an off duty gun is the biggest gun you accuractely deliver rounds onto target with. It is better to hit with a 9mm than to miss with a 45. You cannot miss fast enough to win. Those were a couple quotes from my instructor course that I use a lot. You have the rest of your life to solve the problem, how long your life lasts depends on how well you do it - Clint Smith |
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| Posted about 1 month ago Here's my most recent article on the topic...lotsof people added great comment as well...
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| Posted about 1 month ago Let's see if I can cover all of these: Brantner- Thanks for the article. Great post. Scurge- I had chrono data for a .45 we tested and it was a 3'' barrel.. I can push a .45 up to 1000 fps on a reload.. Ocampo - I use either a speedloader or a Bianchi speed strip. Check out http://www.snubnose.info/docs/speedstrip.htm Jag - Although the 9mm has come a long way, it is still an inferior round for LEO purposes. Many departments have changed to .40, .357, or .45. The posts and replys here are great.. Like many have said, it is better to hit with a 9mm than to miss with a .45. Training is paramount. Shot placement is key.. We qualify using the FBI Q target and I try to get my guys to put their shot placements in the upper 1/4 of the target (Nipple to Shoulder).
Freedom is not free, but the U.S. Marine Corps will pay most of your share. |
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| Posted about 1 month ago Hoop, Thanks for the info |
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| Posted about 1 month ago Everyone has written some interesting stuff. I currently carry a Glock Model 21 .45 Cal for my duty weapon, and carry a Glock Model 30 .45 Cal as a backup and off duty gun. I love it and wouldn't trade it for anything. It's nice to know that my mags from my duty gun will fit in my backup. Never leave home without it!! |